A few months ago I was part of an ongoing conversation that
had me telling the other person that I read what is in the black and white of
Scripture. I said that because the other person regularly told me ‘I think this’,when
in fact what this person thought wasn’t in Scripture at all. This person was
telling me what they were reading into Scripture and not what was in Scripture.
I tried to point out that I don’t read anything into
Scripture, something this person had once told me they never did either. As
that conversation went on, I kept saying I only believe what I see in
Scripture. I believe what is in the black and white of Scripture. It’s either
written on the page or it isn’t there.
Yes, I can speculate on something I read in Scripture, but
to speculate on it takes what it is and turns it into what I want it to be, so I
don’t speculate on it. Even when I try to see beyond what is written there…I do
it in a way of ‘what might this have been like’ and beyond trying to gain a
feel for what that might have been like…I don’t add those feelings to what I see
there.
My grandmother is living out her days in a nursing home. I
think often of what life might be like for her…but I don’t assume to know that that
is what her life is like.
During the course of the conversation when I kept telling
this person that I read only what is written in the black of Scripture…meaning
the words as they are written in the Bible…this person told me that I should read
the white.
I was almost flabbergasted at such a suggestion. Looking at
the words I am writing on this page I see black and I see white. The black says
what I am saying. The black is my words. The black is the point I am making.
The white is…nothing. There is nothing there. If I pick up my Bible I have the
same thing. The black is the Word of the Lord, the white is the blank
background.
To read the white…is to read between the lines. It is to see
what isn’t there. It is to inject my thoughts and ideas into the Lord’s word.
1 Corinthians 4:6 says…
Jesus said have you
not read what is written
He did not say…have you not read between what is written. He
didn’t say…have you not made assumptions about what is written. He said…have
you not read what is written.
I try always to only read what is written…in the black of
Scripture. If the Lord didn’t specifically put something in the Bible then it
isn’t supposed to be there. If He had wanted me to know that ‘this’ happened,
he would have written ‘this’ in the Bible. I can’t just assume it happened that
way because that is what I think…or what I want to have…happened.
I must read what is written…as it is written. I must take
the Lord at His Word and not add anything of my human thoughts, ideas, or
opinions into it. There are times that I am forced to assume what Scripture
means by a certain topic…like I did with Matthew 3:11…but never do I read into
Scripture what I want to be there. I don’t read the white of Scripture because
in the white there is nothing but what I want to be there.
We can easily read anything into the white of Scripture
because when we read what is not there, we make up the story that we want to be
there. It is for that reason that I read only…
The black and white of Scripture.
Those who say this do not have the Spirit of God. God writes His word on the hearts of those who love Him and obey His commandments. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to guide us into all Truth. There is much more God has to say than just what is written in black ink on white paper. Give heed to God's call and listen to what the Spirit has to say.
ReplyDeleteI've heard this said before but I cannot, at this time, believe what you're saying. Scripture is written in black and white. God's word is before us within the pages of a Book that we call the Bible. He has laid it all out for us and seen to it that it has been preserved for His people throughout all of time. If I'm understanding your implication correctly, you're saying that God still reveals new things to people today. If this were the case we would be having new books added to the Bible all the time. Because if
ReplyDeleteGod is revealing things to people today as He did to the men that wrote the Scriptures than the Scriptures are not finished and they would be constantly revised and expanded. The Holy Spirit does guide those that belong to Christ but He does it through Scripture not through new revelations or new understandings of Scripture that was divinely inspired many, many years ago. If I'm wrong, I would be more than willing to correct my understanding of what Scripture teaches if you can show me in Scripture exactly where I'm wrong in my understanding. Please do not use men's ideas or opinions to show me where I'm wrong. I am more than willing to look at this topic from your point of view so long as you use only Scripture to show me where my understanding is wrong.
John 14:26 'But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.' On over in John 21:25 'Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.' Much more is said about the Spirit in John. The Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ, guides us into all truth, glorifies Christ, and declares the things that are to come. Romans 8:26-27: ....'The Spirit intercedes for the saint according to the will of God. Romans 1 makes it clear that God has made himself known to all, ever since Creation...yet our Bibles have only been printed in Black and White since when? 2 Cor 3:17-18. 2 Cor 6:16 ..temple of the LIVING God.' Galatians 5:16-26. Galatians 6:7-8. Phil 2:1-2. Phil 3:3. 2 Tim 1:14. Hebrews 3. 1 John. 1 Cor 2. The Scriptures are discerned only through the Holy Spirit, and no, there are no new Scriptures to be written today. However, we are called the test the spirits. That is not always done based on an exact Scripture. Our lives, as mentioned in Romans 12:1, must be crucified daily to know the perfect Will of God. In this world, we do not have an exact Scripture and guideline to everything we do or are faced with. There is where the Helper is there, alongside us, guiding us into Truth....even for those who do not hold a Bible. Only prosperous countries have this attitude. God is so much bigger than a printed Bible. Even the Bible can become ones idol. Prayerfully and respectfully....
ReplyDeleteMay I ask you, who do you think Jesus Christ is?
DeleteAbsolutely! God. Now, if I may ask..who do you think the Holy Spirit to be? And what do you acknowledge His work to be in your life?
DeleteThe Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead, often referred to as the Trinity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He applied the finished work of Christ on the cross in regenerating me and adopting me into the eternal family of the Father, also known as the elect or the saints of God.
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 10:12
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but I don't understand what you're getting at with this verse. I'm wondering if you read the side bar on this blog that tells about me and what I'm writing about. Do you know that I'm reformed, some call it Calvinism, and that I write from that perspective?
DeleteI'm not comparing myself to you, or to anyone else, except how Christ and the apostles presented the Gospel. I write for the purpose of my own enjoyment and learning of Scripture, never to compare myself to others.
Calvinism is a false doctrine, an abomination to God, and it's followers are largely unloving and self-righteous. Not to speak of you directly, as I do not know you personally, but it is clear through your writings that this is such. A self-righteous person cannot be taught, so therefore I will leave you with this: Titus 2:11-14. May God shine His face upon you and give you peace.
ReplyDeleteYou're not the first person I have encountered that has felt this way, although I do wonder how many Calvinists you know. I can't say I've known all that many, for some reason there seems to be few of them compared to the many that believe in all other ways, their are even few of them compared to those that profess to be Christians. The few reformed people, or Calvinists, that I have known have been far from unloving or self-righteous. They, myself included, do tend to tell people the Truth from Scripture. They correct wrong assumptions, false teachings, and erroneous beliefs by using Scripture to do it. That doesn't make them, or me, unloving, quite the opposite actually. If you saw someone about to fall down a sheer cliff that they could not see...what would be more loving, tell them the truth, even if you had to tell them what they did not want to hear, or to let them fall off the cliff and die? Those that you say are unloving are most likely only trying to point out that you are believing in a false gospel that is not the Gospel of Scripture and that you are on the path of destruction according to Scripture. You are blaming the messenger for delivering a message that has been entrusted to them by the Author of the message.
DeleteYou said a self-righteous person cannot be taught. I wonder...which one of us came to this discussion with an open mind willing to learn? Which of us wanted to learn something new if what we thought we knew was wrong? You pointed out that what I believed was wrong without any support of your statement beyond your own opinion. When I asked you to show me in Scripture that I was wrong and you were right, you gave it a very good try, that honestly surprised me, and gave me a long list of Scripture. The trouble was the Scripture you gave me did not support the claim you had made and so despite my total willingness to be taught and corrected through Scripture, you failed to do that. If I am self-righteous and unwilling to be taught despite having spent hours of my time, time I took from my family, to study the verses you gave me and trying to understand what you were teaching me and even trying, to the point of looking into denominational beliefs, what system of belief you were coming from...if I was unwilling to be taught. Were you humble, with a meek spirit, and open mind? Or did you come to this conversation with your mind set on your beliefs, beliefs that you failed to show a single verse that said what you believed is right, intent on showing me the 'error of my ways' and self-righteously insisting that your belief is the only way and that mine is wrong?
Thank you for your reply. While I can't say that I agree with your reasoning, I appreciate you taking the time to comment and to share your belief. I have, until now, refrained from responding to your comment that gave the Scripture verses while we spoke of other matters, namely where we come from on certain beliefs. I'm not sure what your affiliation is with any particular denomination but through our conversations I have seen, as I am sure you have, that we do not share the same belief.
ReplyDeleteI am reformed. What that means is that I look to Scripture first, last and at all places in between. I do not inject my own thoughts or feelings into Scripture or read into it what I want it to say, which was what I was writing about in this post. I interpret Scripture with Scripture. Using God's word to explain what I do not understand. When we compare one verse against another, and we often must know where to look to do that, than Scripture supports itself and shows us what we have missed. For example, I recently posted an article (Journeying with Paul...part 6) where I read in 2 Corinthians information that filled in some blanks on Paul's character. I was, and am, studying the book of Acts to follow Paul through his life but it takes looking to the books that Paul wrote to gain deeper insight into Paul. Scripture interprets and supports, or explains, Scripture. That is how I approach Scripture.
Never in any of my writings, nor in my daily life, do I compare myself to you, or anyone else. Your belief, whatever it is, is yours by the hand of God. He assigned you to the life you have (1 Corinthians 7:17). Likewise, I must live the life assigned to me. By the grace of God I have been given the faith and belief that I have. I did not earn it. I did not choose it. And I would not change it. This is who and what I am. And it's from that faith, and that belief, that I write these blog posts. I write first, for myself, to have a place to put my thoughts into words. I guess you might say that this is how I do a lot of my Bible study. And I write second, for my husband to be able to read the things I think and what I'm studying. I have chosen to do this through a blog because I process things better when I write them than when I think them and because a blog is an easy place for my husband to access those writings. I also chose to make a blog with my writings because there could possibly be someone else that might enjoy and be edified by what I write. That is the basis for this blog. If what I write, and the beliefs I hold, do not match yours, I am very sorry about that. Really I am. But I cannot change my beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI told you in my first response to your comment that I would seriously consider understanding this topic, reading Scripture in black and white, from your perspective and belief if you could show me where I am wrong in my belief and understanding by using only Scripture to show me. You did that and now I will give you my response to those verses. For clarity I will put your statements in bold italics.Google will not allow me to post more than 4,000+ characters so I will split my reply into multiple responses.
I am sorry but the verses you gave me do not lead me to see anything different in Scripture than what I already do. I honestly looked at the verses you gave with an open mind. I looked them up, approaching my Bible with the intention of understanding what my Lord wrote in each verse you gave. In many of them I even read the surrounding verses so that I could better understand the context of that verse or passage. Nothing in the verses you gave me showed me any support for your statement...There is much more God has to say than just what is written in black ink on white paper. I simply do not see anywhere in Scripture, and I even looked beyond the verses you gave me, where God has said that he gives us instruction outside of Scripture.
ReplyDeleteJohn 14:26 'But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.'
I agree with this whole heartedly but I see nothing in that verse that leads me to believe that the Holy Spirit is giving new revelations to believers today, what I understood you to be implying, or leading us apart from Scripture. What I get from that verse, first was that Christ was speaking directly to his disciples, and second that the Holy Spirit will teach and bring to remembrance all things, or that he will, through his teaching remind us of our Lord and all that is written in Scripture. In 1 John 2:27 we are told...But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. So, the Holy Spirit teaches us all things but he is not doing through new revelations, or through things that are not in Scripture but through the words of God in Scripture. Christ himself said..."Have you not read..." Matthew 19:4. Christ directed those listening to him to what was written, he did not direct them to the white of what was written. In His very own words, the written words are what are to be read.
John 21:25 'Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.'
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your connection between this verse and your assertion that we must read more than the black of Scripture. Are you implying that we can somehow know all, or any, of the things that Christ did that were not written in Scripture?
I also must ask...do you believe that Scripture is the inspired word of God? And if so do you believe that God has preserved His word as He wanted it throughout the ages? If we were supposed to know of the many other things Christ did...wouldn't God have preserved them with the rest of His instructions to us?
Much more is said about the Spirit in John.
Yes, but I see nowhere in there that the Spirit is giving us revelations outside of the Holy Scriptures, that is in the black of the written word in God's Holy Word, given to us for our Salvation and His glory.
The Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ, guides us into all truth, glorifies Christ, and declares the things that are to come.
I agree with this but I am left to wonder if we both see the way this is done in the same way.
Romans 8:26-27: ....'The Spirit intercedes for the saint according to the will of God.
ReplyDeleteYes. He does, I completely agree with you on this. But...intercedes does not mean that He is giving us revelations outside of what is written in Scripture, and reading anything between the lines, or in the white areas of Scripture, also known as injecting our own man centered thoughts and feelings into what God has written. When the Spirit intercedes for us it means he is stepping in for our weakness. He does not step in to give us extra-Scriptural revelations but to intercede for us, between us, and God.
Romans 8:26-27 reads...'Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings to deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.' But I wonder...what do you make of the rest of the passage? Those two verses are not stand alone verses. That passage goes on to say...'And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
That passage, while speaking of the Holy Spirit and what He does in our lives also speaks of God and His elect people, chosen from the foundation of the world. It says that the Spirit intercedes for us because we do not know how to pray as we ought, and that all things work for the good of those God has chosen as His own.
Romans 1 makes it clear that God has made himself known to all, ever since Creation...yet our Bibles have only been printed in Black and White since when?
ReplyDeleteYes, God has made himself known to all from the beginning of creation and Bibles have not been in print through all of those years, although God's word has been in print since the Ten Commandments were written on stone tablets. God, in those days, also spoke through men. He gave instructions straight to men and they passed them on to others but Scripture in the form of Books that men call Bibles have not been in print through a good part of time and even when it was put in printed form it was not, and still is not, available to all. But Romans 1 is not saying that God reveals himself through Scripture, as you implied. Romans 1:20 says...For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.' This tells us that it is through what God created, or his workmanship, that God is revealed. This in no way says that we should read what isn't written in Scripture, it says that everything God made points to Him.
Again...I wonder what you make of the rest of that passage. You led me to Romans 1 but I see nothing in that chapter to support what you're trying to teach me and everything to reinforce what I already believe. I'm sorry. I did look at all these verses with an open mind. I'm always willing to be taught something new, or something I may understand incorrectly, if the teaching comes from Scripture, but I simply do not see that the Scripture you are giving me supports what you are trying to teach me.
Continuing on in Romans 1... For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools...Therefore God gave them up...' vs 21-24
Those verses have nothing to do with what you're trying to teach me but considering you led me to Romans 1, I wonder what you see in verses like this. What do you make of them? And how they effect you when you read them.
2 Cor 3:17-18. 2 Cor 6:16 ..temple of the LIVING God.'
ReplyDeleteNow the Lord[d] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[e] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
What agreement has the temple of God with idols? Forwe are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6:16
I'm going to break these verses into two responses because, although I think I see where you are connecting them to each other, to me they are two very different things and I see only a slight connection between the two, that is, I cannot quite see how you're using the first of those two verses to refer to the body being the temple of God. It takes an indwelling, or being regenerated, by Christ for our bodies to become temples for Him but I can't quite see even the connection you're seeing between these two verses, although, I do think I understand what that connection you're making is.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 us speaking of freedom in Christ, that is freedom from sin and from the lusts of the flesh and the elects knowledge that they have an eternity in heaven. It also is teaching that the Lord transforms those that are His, or the elect, into an image of His glory. He takes them from the sin filled human that they are and changes them into someone that seeks after Him instead of seeking the things of the world, or sin.
2 Corinthians 6:16 does refer to the temple of the LIVING God but it is not saying that God is revealing new things to people, in fact, I must wonder if someone believes that God is revealing new things to them, just who it is that is speaking to them and leading them to believe that it is God. Those verses are saying that the elect, once regenerated and inhabited by the Spirit become the temple of the LIVING God. Christ indwells those that are His once He has granted them salvation but He does not speak directly to them outside of His word, the Scriptures.
Galatians 5:16-26.
ReplyDelete16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.'
These verses tell us what the fruit of the Spirit is, or what we will see in regenerate believers that have been given salvation, and what the works of the flesh are, or the things we will see in those that are not of Christ. They do instruct us to walk by the Spirit but it is only the Spirit that can change the heart of an unrepentant, unbeliever, or professing believer, and turn them into a regenerate saint, or one of the elect.
Galatians 6:7-8.
'7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. '
I'm sorry but I can see no connection between those verses and what you were trying to teach me.
Phil 2:1-2.
ReplyDeleteSo if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
This verse does not imply we should learn things outside of what is taught in Scripture. We are led by the Spirit. In fact the Spirit changes us so that we are given salvation but this verse does not say that we are led in any way outside Scripture, the lesson, I believe, you are attempting to teach me.
Phil 3:3.
For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God[b] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
This refers to the elect. They worship by the Spirit of God because God dragged them (John 6:44) from their unregenerate life, regenerated them, and filled them with the Spirit. That is how they worship by the Spirit of God. But...worshipping by the Spirit does not, that I can see, imply that they are being led in any way into anything different than what Scripture says. They do not need Scripture in front of them to worship God because they are filled with His Spirit and can worship in the Spirit.
2 Tim 1:14.
By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.
The good deposit entrusted to us is Christ. Those that have been given salvation have been entrusted with a gift from God that saved them from their sins, essentially from themselves, and gave them eternal life instead of eternal damnation. This 'good deposit' that has been 'entrusted' is only entrusted to the elect of God. It is given to those that God chose to save out of all people in the world in all of time (Ephesians 1). The Holy Spirit dwells within the elect because God has granted the elect salvation.
Hebrews 3.
I can see nothing in this chapter to support what you're trying to show me in my being wrong about reading Scripture in black and white.
1 John.
ReplyDeleteThe book of 1 John shows us how to test ourselves to see if we have been regenerated, or given salvation. There are many places where Scripture speaks of the Spirit but in none of those places is it saying that we are led apart from Scripture today. There was a time when God spoke directly to men but that time is past. He now speaks to us through His word. Any leading of us He does beyond that is done through him changing our hearts so that we become what He wants us to be.
1 Cor 2.
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
I'm having a very hard time understanding how this verse ties into what you said in your original comment...There is much more God has to say than just what is written in black ink on white paper. I understand who Paul is addressing in that verse and I think I understand what part of it has you choosing it and applying it to yourself, but I can't see any connection to the statement you made that had you trying to correct my understanding. I'm sorry. I have tried, truly tried, to understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to teach me but I simply can't see that your verses support what you believe.
The Scriptures are discerned only through the Holy Spirit,
Agreed.
and no, there are no new Scriptures to be written today.
When God spoke to men, or gave them revelations apart from Scripture, which is what I was understanding you were suggesting is still the case today, those speakings were recorded as divine revelation from God and were later compiled into the Book we call the Bible today.
However, we are called the test the spirits.
Agreed. Scripture supports this.
That is not always done based on an exact Scripture.
Anything that is not done based on exact Scripture is a gospel that goes against the Gospel of Christ. Paul gave instruction on this very thing in the first chapter of Galatians...
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. verses 6-6
Our lives, as mentioned in Romans 12:1, must be crucified daily to know the perfect Will of God.
ReplyDeleteWe can never know the perfect will of God. To do so would be to know the mind of God. We can be assured that whatever we are experiencing or doing is the perfect will of God because we are told...
Only let each person lead the life[a] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 1 Corinthians 7:17
In this world, we do not have an exact Scripture and guideline to everything we do or are faced with.
That would depend on what you mean by whether or not we have an exact Scripture. If you are saying we don't have a verse to tell us whether we should go to the grocery store or not, or whether or now we should buy a car or a house...you're right. But there are verses that explain every facet of life. We can, and should, turn to Scripture for all of life. Although I highly doubt there is a person out there that does that, we make choices and take actions every day on things we do not consult Scripture about, but if we are regenerated and have the fruit of the Spirit than we should, in just about all cases act and react based off our knowledge and understanding of Christ and what He expects of us. Do we fail? Yes. But there are instructions to us for all of life within the words of Scripture and we need look nowhere else. To do so is to seek guidance from something apart from Christ.
There is where the Helper is there, alongside us, guiding us into Truth....even for those who do not hold a Bible.
Please see my response to the above statement.
Only prosperous countries have this attitude.
I'm sorry but I don't see the relevance of this statement. My blog post and all of the conversation that you and I have shared are not because of a prosperous country, I don't even know where you're from, but because of a difference in doctrine and theology. It is the difference between someone approaching Scripture from God first and someone approaching it from man first, in other words it is the difference in the man-centered reading of, and applying of, Scripture, and God-centered reading of, and applying of Scripture. The financial status of our country/countries has nothing to do with it. We could be in the poorest country in the world and still be having this very same conversation.
God is so much bigger than a printed Bible. Even the Bible can become ones idol.
I fully agree with this.
I knew even as I was writing this, and in the days leading up to me writing this, response that you and I were not going to be able to see this topic the same way, and that's okay. You believe one way and I believe another. I don't know what prompted you to leave your original comment or what you hoped to accomplish in correcting me but I was more than willing to learn, to be taught, something that I may have been wrong about if Scripture had supported your teaching and corrected my error but in reading all that you shared with me, I have been unable to see anything in Scripture that says that we should read more into Scripture than what is written. I do thank you for trying to show me where you believed I was wrong though. If I'm understanding the point you were trying to make in some of those verses, you were showing that the Spirit leads us. I do agree with that. The Spirit does live within and lead those that belong to Christ, or the elect, as for seeing in Scripture that we are to be led through means other than the indwelling of Christ, if he has regenerated us, and Scripture, I'm sorry but I don't believe that that is true. I believe it to be a gospel other than the Gospel of Scripture. In the end, I must say that I am still reformed, and that I cannot see Scripture from any other way. And I must stick with what my Lord said...and He asked if they had not read, he said nothing of reading between the lines, or outside of Scripture.
I am one who follows Biblical Theology rather that Systematic Theology. In biblical theology we tend to read scripture and mine it for implication and then go and live what it says. We ask, “What is the bible saying on this matter?” Systematic theology is rooted in the bible, absolutely. It takes all the biblical data and constructs a system of thought on a particular topic that is rooted in scripture, but then once that system is built [the believer] goes back to scripture and reads it through that filter. Now you can see the danger. Systematic theology creates a clear-headedness so that when you read scripture you can fit things together and see things perhaps you’ve never seen before. But what if when building that original structure you made some mistakes? Now you’ve built a filter that’s flawed and every time you read scripture through it you will reinforce flawed beliefs.
ReplyDeleteSo all of us need to be humble and say we believe that through the Bible God is speaking to us and theology is only our best intellectual human response to that.
…Anabaptists look back over church history and realize that in those times when the Church was theologically the most rigorous it was also the most violent. Every time they held another meeting to make sure they nailed down orthodoxy was another time that persecution broke out against the people who didn’t embrace the orthodoxy. So you can understand then why historically Anabaptists are very skeptical of creeds – we’re a non-creedal group of people, because every time you fashion a creed it gives another excuse to kill people who won’t sign the creed.
And if you can’t even get the simplest, the plainest teaching of Jesus – like “don’t kill” – why should we trust you on matters that are far more complex? Our first leaders within the Anabaptist movement were intellectuals, students of the first reformers. As they studied the bible they said to the reformers you’re not going far enough. They debated with their professors. A bunch of twenty-somethings who had courage and vision and were debating with their professors saying, “We need to take this further.” They identified themselves publicly, wrote, preached, debated and then they were all slaughtered.
That was our first layer of Anabaptist leadership. The next layer of leadership that had some education was slaughtered. And the next. And finally we were left with farmers and bakers who said, “How do we just follow Jesus? Because that’s all we can do.”
So the early leadership of the Anabaptists focused on following Jesus. “Don’t kill. We’ll start with that and then we’ll branch out from there.”
If you’re a Calvinist you need to understand this about Anabaptists: Not only do we disagree with you. We disagree about the importance of the disagreement. And one simply need to look at the history of Calvin himself. So you did miss what I was trying to show you because you will learn only through Calvin colored glasses, which is your filter.
I completely agree with you that when Scripture is approached through a lens, a person see's all of Scripture through that lens. Scripture refers to it as being blinded or veiled...
DeleteAnd even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 2 Corinthians 4:3 ESV
In this case the veil is a belief system through which a person looks at Scripture. In your most recent comment you accuse me of looking at Scripture through, 'Calvin colored glasses' but fail to see the lens through which you are approaching Scripture.
In that comment you gave me the history, although I am sure it was an abbreviated version, of the Anabaptist denominational beliefs. Anytime we, as fallen people, align ourselves with a denomination, or group of people, we are approaching Scripture through a lens, or veil, that places into our head a set of beliefs through which we approach Scripture.
You accuse me of being a 'Calvinist' as if it is the worst thing there is...no surprise, since Christ himself said...
If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. John 15:18
While I will lay claim to the man-made title of 'Calvinist' if necessary for clarifying things to those that do not understand other, more accurate, terms, I do not consider myself to be a 'Calvinist'. There are those that put following Calvin at great importance. I do not follow Calvin in any way. I have read only a few of Calvin's writings, and those only because someone that said very much the same things you're saying here, and had ties to Anabaptist's, showed them to me.
DeleteI did not even know about John Calvin when the Lord saved me and opened my eyes, unveiling Scripture, and showed me the Truth of Scripture so that I no longer approached His word through any veil.
I have discovered that in our fallen world, where people tend to, and often need to, align themselves with a man-made word to show their system of belief, that it is necessary to occasionally give a man-made term for what I believe. In my case I must use the word Reformed or, very rarely, 'Calvinist', and although the use of these words are required in our world at times so that others can understand where I am coming from, I do not consider myself anything but a follower of Christ. I follow no man. Only Christ.
In your response you have given me, not Scripture to back your beliefs, but the history of men. Men that, I might add, by your own words based their entire system of belief on, "So the early leadership of the Anabaptist's focused on following Jesus. “Don’t kill. We’ll start with that and then we’ll branch out from there.” That belief is a false gospel and is heresy. Christ himself taught one gospel, repent and believe. Scripture backs that up...
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15 ESV
It is the same gospel that Christ told the disciples to teach, the same gospel that Paul taught, and it is the Gospel of Scripture.
We should begin with the true gospel, that is Christ, and what He taught, repent and believe, not on 'Don't kill'. To follow any gospel but the one that Christ brought is to follow a false gospel.
DeleteBut even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8 ESV
You are approaching Scripture through an Anabaptist filter, gaining from the passages what you take them to say based off a system of belief that was made by men and not Christ, a false system of belief that is leading many astray from the true Gospel.
While you accuse me of being a 'Calvinist', something I have never laid claim to except for clarification purposes, and something, that if you will look at where I first used the term in our conversation, I said 'some call it Calvinism', I did not then, nor do I now, call myself a 'Calvinist'. I am a follower of Christ, one that when necessary, uses the description of Reformed to describe how I believe, but bases all of what I believe on Scripture, and can use Scripture, and nothing but Scripture, to back those beliefs.
When I agreed to look at things from your point of view, and possibly change my understanding of Scripture if you could truly show me where I was wrong, I asked you to use nothing but Scripture to do that. You did a wonderful job of doing that at first but now you are resorting to giving me a history of a religious group that Scripture says is a group of people attempting to work their way into heaven with all their rules and requirements, and believing in a gospel that is not the Gospel of Scripture.
DeleteI do appreciate you sharing your belief system with me because it helps me to understand where you are coming from. While I will admit to approaching Scripture through the lens of being reformed, or God-centered, meaning I begin with God and see how man fits into God's plans, I can now understand what lens you are approaching Scripture through.
There are only two ways to look at Scripture, one is to start with God, the other is to start with man, or being man-centered. I approach Scripture from a God-centered view. The lens I use is to look at Scripture and say this is all because of God, what does He have to tell me? And I read nothing else into Scripture. I now know that you approach Scripture from a man-centered view and that you do it through an Anabaptist lens. In other words, you approach Scripture with the Anabaptist beliefs already drilled into your head and you look for those beliefs, or ways to support the heresy you're believing in, through the lens of being an Anabaptist Armenian. I am a Reformed Monergist.
Those are all man-made terms that are only necessary for clarification. Saying you are an Anabaptist Armenian tells me what you believe, or at least a good part of what you believe.
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DeleteI'm not sure where you got the idea that I 'need' to understand anything about Anabaptist's, I'm doing nothing to try and change their system of belief, nor am I having interactions with them, aside from this conversation, but I do appreciate you pointing out the close-minded, self-righteousness through which Anabaptist's apparently see Calvinists.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder, though, if you are so opposed to me as a 'Calvinist', why you keep engaging in conversation with me. From the tone of your most recent comment I get the impression that you are saying that anyone that can even remotely be considered a 'Calvinist' is considered an enemy, at least spiritually.
I fail to see why an Anabaptist, a group of people that is known for being peaceful, would come to a blog that clearly states what the writer believes, and proceed to tell the writer, someone they apparently don't know in real life, that what they believe is wrong and then tell them that 'Calvinist's' and Anabaptist's disagree and that they disagree on the importance of the disagreement. You are right about that though, because, while I see the lens you approach Scripture through as something that could cost you Christ and an eternity with him, I do not see the need to stir up trouble over the differing viewpoints.
I believe that Christ will save those that are His, the elect, that have been predestined to be given salvation from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4,11), out of any man-made system of belief, or unbelief. Therefore, I see no reason to make an issue of a difference of how someone see's Scripture, although how one approaches Scripture makes a world of difference in how they understand it. As you said, when Scripture is viewed through a lens...that lens clouds the ability to see and understand Scripture.
Although, I must say that before the Lord opened my eyes and saved me from the veil of Armenianism that I, too, approached Scripture from a man-centered, Arminian viewpoint. I grew up in 'church' buildings that push their beliefs on people, telling them false teachings, and twisted Scripture, as if those things come straight from Scripture as the Word of God. I had much to research in the pages of Scripture once the Lord opened my eyes, much to learn, without the Armenian lens clouding my view and my understanding.
While I questioned why someone that so opposes what I believe would not only read what I write but engage in an ongoing conversation with me, I do hope, very much, that you will continue to read what I write, and please don't take my word for anything I say, check it against Scripture yourself. I would encourage you, if you see a verse or passage differently than I do, if you know an atheist or other complete unbeliever, ask them to read and interpret that passage to you. I have found that total unbelievers can often see Scripture without any lens in place because they put no value on it and see it as simply any other book, some of them even see it as a book of fiction. And please, continue to comment, even to correct me, as I appreciate the opportunity to engage in conversation with my readers, whatever the topic of conversation may be, and to study more of Scripture and to test my own beliefs.
DeleteI would like to ask you something, though, something that if I were approaching this topic, and conversation, as you appear to be, I would ask myself...What is the very bottom line of your belief system? Is it Christ? Do you believe that Christ is the way to salvation? And if you do...then what does it matter if a 'Calvinist' approaches Christ in a different way than you do? Why are you so disdainful of 'Calvinists'? And what does it hurt if they believe as they do? If Christ is the basis of salvation, and He is no matter what any man may say, Scripture affirms that too, than belief in Christ is the single most important part of salvation. And if you believe that...than what difference does it make to you if I look at Scripture differently than you do, or if anyone that you so disdainfully refer to as a 'Calvinist' looks at it differently than you do?
Let me first apologize for coming across as the denomination of Anabaptism. No, I am simply a Believer in Christ, one who has, by the Grace of God, experienced a New Birth. I fully take to heart the words of Jesus...to OBEY His commandments. It is more than understanding, it is doing and living. I would adhere rather closely to Anabaptist beliefs, but absolutely not Armenian. You seem to put the two together, but that it not a true statement. There is ground in between Calvinism and Armenianism...and that is Biblical ground. Neither doctrine is the True Gospel of Christ. So we both agree that we are of no man made denomination, but rather need to 'voice' a place that we stand in line with God. I will say, that based on your top response, this alone comes across as exceedingly self-righteous. It is very condemning and unloving to say the least. Why am I engaging in this conversation? Is not love to reprove?
ReplyDeleteSo you are not non-resistant? If not, where is that in the Gospel?
Jesus Christ in indeed the ONLY way to salvation. Do you understand Justification and Sanctification?
There are so many false doctrines today, and so many to say they are Christians. But are they 'set apart' from the world? Do they 'abide' in Christ? Do they have brotherly love? Are there wicked things before their eyes? Do they raise their children in the love of God or do they simply let them 'grow up and go to the world?' Are they the light and salt? Do they have the 'good' eye or the bad? A child-like faith and a meek and humble, broken, contrite heart is where the Spirit of the Living God dwells. I was once self-righteous and God gave me victory over that. I am always saddened to see that evil spirit, so I spoke out. It is not offend, but Lord willing, to save. Being offended is one of the first signs, and I do see that I offended you. Let us commit this conversation to the Holy Spirit and I will part. Please remember what the Scriptures say about the wise and their words, and especially idle talk. Prov. 10:19, Prov. 18:2, Ecc 5:2, Matthew 12:36, James 3:6. May God bless you on your Journey to Christ!
Let me begin by apologizing if I came across as self-righteous in any of my responses to you, or to anyone. That was never my intent or my feelings. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God, given salvation by His mercy and but for Him choosing me I would be as the worst person on earth.
DeleteI do believe in reproving, and would wholeheartedly agree that to reprove someone is to love them. I do not, however, believe that reproach is always kind. Sometimes we must simply tell someone the truth and tell it to them like it is, without the benefit of kid gloves. And when the topic in question has eternal ramifications, I would rather say what needs saying straight out, and risk offending someone, than to try and be kind, by fallen human standards, to spare their feelings.
Labels are simply something that give 'voice' to our beliefs, as you said, but I do not, in any way, agree that there is a place between Monergism (Calvinism) and Synergism (Armenianism). We either approach God from His side or from ours. The only ground I could possibly believe exists between Monergism and Synergism would be in the case of people that have been Armenian's but are seeing Scripture in a true light, without a veil, but haven't yet begun to understand what they see. I can't see any way that there would be any other place between approaching all of life in a God first mentality, or approaching it in a belief that says that people must first choose to believe before God can act. There is no true middle ground in that.
I would point out, for you, or any visitor to this blog, that Arminianism can be determined by doing an internet search on the five points of Arminianism. One of the key beliefs of Arminian's is the belief that a person has free will. So anyone believing in free will, and I'm not saying you do, is an Arminian.
No, I would not say that I am non-resistant. First I would say that a belief in whether or not we can defend ourselves against attack is not a part of the Gospel. The Gospel is to repent and believe in Christ. Scripture does not say that we are to be non-resistant, although it does tell us not to murder. Defending oneself, or another, is not the same as murder. As for Scripture to back my belief...
DeleteHe said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36 ESV
In that verse Christ is telling the disciples to get a sword. I ask you, why would he be telling them to do that? Would they have any need of a sword if He wanted them to be non-resistant?
Yes, I understand justification and sanctification. Justification happens when you are regenerated by the Spirit of God. At that very moment you are justified and considered righteous in the eyes of God. Sanctification is the ongoing process each Christian lives throughout his life as God prepared it beforehand, that we should walk in them, not by our deeds but by those that God has preordained before the foundations of the world. (Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2:10)
I would agree that there are many false doctrines today, and I firmly and unshakably believe that the reformed, or Monergistic, view is the doctrine of Christ. I believe it is what the disciples taught, I believe it is what Paul taught, and it is the doctrine that I place my faith, and my eternity, in.
DeleteI can't, however agree with your statements, "But are they 'set apart' from the world? Do they 'abide' in Christ? Do they have brotherly love? Are there wicked things before their eyes? Do they raise their children in the love of God or do they simply let them 'grow up and go to the world?" While I do agree that these things will show in a Christian, I do not believe that these things will happen because of anything any person does. Once a person is regenerated they will naturally avoid sinful things and raise their children to know Christ, simply because they can do nothing else. These things, in a truly regenerated, born again, believer are done because there is such a radical change in who they are that they cannot look upon sin without pain and they cannot fail to teach their children of Christ. Our children are assigned a life by God...
Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. 1 Corinthians 7:17 ESV
We do not ever just let our children go to the world, they are already of the world. They are born with sin in them, referred to as original sin (Romans 5), and must, in time, become their own person, living out the life that God assigned to them before the foundation of the world.
You have not offended me in any way but I do, and always will, feel the need to reply and point out the errors of anyone's beliefs, especially when they come onto my blog, leaving comments that may influence someone that is here to read what I have written.
It is for that reason that I have responded so thoroughly to your latest comment. It seems to me that you wish to end this discussion but I cannot leave your comment without my replies, if not for you, then for others that read this. They may want to hear my responses to the things you have questioned me on, or things you have stated in this latest comment.
Again, you have not offended me in any way. I have enjoyed the chance to engage with a reader and to put my own beliefs to the test of Scripture as I pondered over, and wrote out, my responses.
After reading many, many comments on various subjects, I am even more convinced of Jesus' words that say there be few that find the narrow gate. So many are simply missing the mark due to trusting in their baptism, decision of some time ago, acceptance of Jesus, etc... I am even more convinced of the fact that there is a tiny few holding to the true Gospel and therefore, correct doctrine. So few, it seems, are willing to study, stop relying on human wisdom & reasoning, even fewer willing to abandon denominational teaching in order to "see" the Doctrines of Grace. So many are seeking the supernatural, seeking extra-Biblical "revelation and/or knowledge" seeking signs, wonders & miracles.
ReplyDeleteThis makes me think there is an ever growing need for genuine discipleship and true Biblical teaching concerning salvation & subsequent Christian living. Also, I think believers holding fast to the Doctrines of Grace are going to have to support each other more than ever before as it is clear there is growing animosity and even hatred for us. Especially, among the "religious" people. We need to pray for one another now more than ever. Very difficult times are coming.